Fwd: Re: Don't Need Rock Powders for Soil Fertility?
lloyd kinder (lkindr@hotmail.com)
Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:16:49 PDT
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>From: "lloyd kinder" <lkindr@hotmail.com>
>To: lkindr@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re: Don't Need Rock Powders for Soil Fertility?
>Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:39:42 PDT
>
>Here's Dan's reply to my previous questions, which he wanted posted to
>the list. My questions will follow at the end.
>>In a message dated 9/15/98 10:18:51 PM, you wrote:
>>[... Replies interspersed in the body of your note.]
>>
>>>>Hi Dan. Glad Steve posted your note. What does it take for a person,
>>who's me or not, to get in your email correspondence course [re
>permaculture]? Does it >take something like money? If so, how much? <<
>>
>>REPLY: There are various arrangements. The cheapest is to pay
>everything up
>>front for $1,000 + books. I'll paste the course protocol and reading
>list to
>>the end of this email. If money is tight, you can also monitor the
>course,
>>which is basically lurking, getting to hear class discussion, but not
>>participating.
>>
>>>>Or can I barter? <<
>>
>>REPLY: Yes, some of the fee can be bartered, if you have something I
>want and
>>a way to get it to me. We are new on site and don't grow all our own
>food
>>yet, for example, and would prefer food grown responsibily. No barter
>for
>>books for obvious reasons.
>>
>>>>What's this
>>Keyline cultivation business? What's the story? <<
>>
>>REPLY: It is too involved to describe in email. You will think it is
>contour
>>plowing, which it most definitely is not. We distribute the book (by
P
>A
>>Yeomans of Australia) and we cover it in the course. You should read
>the book
>>3 or 4 times, though the new edition is a bit easier to grasp than the
>>original text. It is also described very briefly, but enough to give
>you an
>>idea of whether or not you want more info, in one of our journals.
>(Vol. 1,
>>No. 3, international permaculture solutions journal). Both
>publications are
>>on the course reading list. We cover different aspects of keyline at
>three
>>different junctures in the course.
>>
>>>>We have a small farm
>>which we just started to convert partly to organic this year. We had
>>some pasture ground that hasn't been treated chemically for a long
>time.
>>We got some info out of Acres, USA and from various organic folks and
>>decided to put granite dust and soft rock phosphate on our organic
>>ground and other fields. So now you and others seem to say it's likely
>>unneeded. That'd be great, but does it mean we'll have to learn some
>>special techniques? Or would just the Keyline cultivation thing be
>enuf,
>>whatever that is?<<
>>
>>REPLY: need is a strong word. If you provide all the correct
>conditions, the
>>rock dust can jump start your soil. You aren't after all interested
in
>>eventual fertility but good wholesome yields sooner rather than later
>as you
>>need to make a profit, maybe even to keep the farm out of less
>responsible
>>hands. You certainly can't go wrong adding rock dust of the sorts you
>>described, though you also have to provide organic matter and aeration
>to get
>>any benefit from it. Weeds and chisel plowing will help--the organic
>matter
>>doesn't have to be fancy. (Many weeds are mineral accumulators
anyway.
>Get
>>them while they are succulent for faster breakdown and disk them in
>before
>>chisel plowing. If they foul the plow, wait a bit.
>>
>>>>We don't know much of anything about permaculture so
>>far, unless it's just along the lines of organic gardening. Does
>>permaculture work on a farm, or is it just for gardening, or small
>scale
>>growing? I'm posting this to the list, so if you don't answer
>>everything, I hope someone else will. A recent soil test showed that
>>we're low on calcium, phosphorus and sulphur mainly. I don't remember
>>how many pounds per acre of each, but none was near zero. Can we
>>actually get by without putting any lime on our fields too?<<
>>
>>
>>REPLY: I'd really rather be answering these questins on the list so
>more
>>people can get the benefit of them. Retest your pH--the other rock
>powders
>>will have been helpful in nudging it up. Do not attenpt to raise pH
>abruptly.
>>If you keyline cultivate, organic activity in concert with your
>>remineralization should have a buffering effect on pH. I can't
>certainly make
>>solid recommendations long distance. I'd have to walk the land. The
>main
>>thing wrong with lime as a soil ammendment is that it comes from strip
>mines.
>>(The granite and phosphate rock may be radioactive.) But change pH
>GENTLY, so
>>soil organisms can develop a new ecology. Or grow crops that do well
>with
>>what you have.
>>
>>>> I've been
>>reading literature from CASI, Christian Agricultural Stewardship
>>Institute of Dexter, Mo. From what you're saying, they must be wrong
>>too, since they advocate applying rock dusts, when soil analyses
>>indicate certain mineral needs. Organic growing is turning out to be
>>about as complex as the alternative health field. It's hard to
>determine
>>which school of thought is most correct. I sure hope our rock dusts
>>didn't give us radioactive soil. Aloha. Lloyd<<
>>
>>REPLY: Well that's done and there are benefits and disbenefits,
>however it
>>turns out. I don't think it is the end of the world, but something to
>be
>>aware of. Superphosphate comes from rock phosphate, of course, except
>that it
>>has been treated by sulphuric acid to make everything (including
>radiactives
>>and often relatively large amounts of cadmium) soluble. There is no
>right
>>and wrong. If I were your field consultant, I'd probably advise trial
>plots
>>of different approaches to see what works--and to keep those plots
>going for
>>years as they may have long-term effects that are not immediately
>apparent.
>>
>>yes permaculture works for farms because it is an approach that
>involves a
>>design system, not judgements to scale. However we would encourage
you
>not to
>>try to farm more land than you can know intimately, every square inch.
>>Otherwise, you are changing things and not knowing the results, only
>yield
>>which is a tiny fraction of the total result of farming.
>>
>>We can give workshops or courses at your place, you can take our
online
>>course, or whatever. There are countless ways for you to proceed.
>>
>>If you want us to be part of that, let me know. I'll need to be paid,
>of
>>couse, or I'm better working with my own land.
>>
>>For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications
(since
>1982),
>>Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
>>consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual
>correspondence
>>courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box
>52,
>>Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com
>>
>>We don't have time to rush.
>>
>>A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
>>http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
>>Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture
>Teachers
>>assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html
>>
>>========================
>>
>>Third Annual Permaculture Design Course Online Starts in November
>>
>> Elfin Permaculture's third Annual Permaculture Design Course Online
>will
>>begin at
>>the end of November 1998. The in-depth course runs 5-6 months,
>depending on
>>class
>>needs. The course includes at home reading assignments, instructor's
>>"lectures"
>>distributed via email, email class discussion of current themes and
>student
>>projects, a
>>number of special student reports, and a permaculture design project
>completed
>>by each
>>student. Successful completion of all course requirements leads to
>>certification as an entry-
>>level permaculturist.
>>
>> The course is particularly suited to people who cannot take two or
>three
>>weeks for a
>>live permaculture course, people living in areas distant from such
live
>>courses, and people
>>seeking a particularly in-depth training in permaculture. Advance
>students
>>may arrange to
>>take the course at an advanced level. The course is not suitable for
>people
>>who require a
>>more tactile approach to learning, unless arrangements are made to
>hybridize
>>the course
>>with live training programs. (Email this address for details)
>>
>> As in all Elfin Permaculture programs, we offer some scholarships.
>However
>>for
>> the online course the number of scholarships is very limited, with a
>backlog
>>of qualified applicants. Students are encouraged to seek funding from
>>suitable donors.
>>
>> Elfin Permaculture has arranged several alternative approaches for
>people who
>>want
>>exposure to the course material but cannot take the course at this
>time. As
>>in our previous
>>online courses, we offer monitor status at a nominal fee, so people
can
>follow
>>the course
>>reading, receive special instructor's materials, and read class
>discussion as
>>they see fit. In
>>addition, Elfin Permaculture offers for the first time a complete set
>of
>>reading assignments
>>and course notes, on disk or in print. We are aware that for some
>people,
>>downloading
>>email materials is not possible or is prohibitively expensive due to
>time
>>charges by their
>>ISP. They can now receive the class materials by mail. In addition,
we
>will
>>take up to two
>>conventional correspondence students, on a one-on-one basis, at one
>time,
>>either via mail
>>or email.
>>
>> The broad course outline is as follows:
>> Section 1: Introduction and Basic Principles
>> a) World ecological problems and interrelationships.
>> b) Principles of natural design.
>> c) Permaculture design concepts.
>> d) Classical landscapes.
>> e) Patterning, edges, edge effects.
>> f) The Permaculture Design Report
>> g) Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much
as
>we
>>have worked out at the moment--this is not part of ordinary
>permaculture
>>design courses).
>> Section 2: Appropriate Technologies in Permaculture Design
>> a) Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc.
>> b) Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods,
>perennials,
>>tree
>>crops, food parks, composting toilets, livestock, "pest" management,
>food
>>storage, seed
>>saving, cultivated systems, forests, etc.
>> c) Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc.
>> d) Buildings.
>> Section 3: Social permaculture. Design Report.
>> a) Design for catastrophe.
>> b) Urban permaculture.
>> c) Bioregionalism.
>> d) Alternative economics.
>> e) Village development.
>> f) Final design reports and critiques.
>> g) Final evaluation.
>>
>>For more information request the course protocol and reading list from
>Elfin
>>Permaculture
>>at Permacltur@aol.com
>>
>>For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications
(since
>1982),
>>Elfin
>>Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
>consulting and
>>permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses
>via
>>email.
>>Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192
>USA
>>Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com
>>
>>We don't have time to rush.
>>
>>A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at
>>http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html
>>Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture
>Teachers
>>Assn. home
>>page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html
>>
>Hi again Dan. It looks like the course covers how to redesign the
world.
>For now all I want to know is how to farm organically and at a profit.
>The keyline cultivation method sounds most pertinent. How much is the
>vol. 1, #3 issue of your International Permaculture Solutions Journal
>that you say covers that method? And what address should I send the
>check to? Thanks for the other info you provided. Aloha. Lloyd
>
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