Hope Loren doesn't mind if I pass this on -
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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:23:41 -0600
From: "Douglas M. Hinds" <dmhinds@acnet.net>
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To: organic@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: Stake in farmers' market
References: <v01540b0ab20eaba9be03@[205.254.241.44]>
<35E9C3B7.CF04F2B6@acnet.net> <35E9E05F.4D4D@aesop.rutgers.edu>
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Cook Organic Garden Club wrote:
> Douglas M. Hinds wrote:
> >
> > I hate to say this but - I tried very hard to sound the alarm
> > regarding this type of thing - that the danger of OFPA goes far
> > beyond the GMO's, the sewage sludge and the irradiation.
>
> I have read your many warnings, but what remains is still:
>
> How is a retail purchaser to know if something is "organic" as
> I mean "organic" if those who are not certified can advertise
> their produce as "organic"?
Good point. It is a relationship that rightfully should be resolved between
buyer and seller. A retailer or distributor must know and apply the same
criteria as their own clients. There are many ways of verifying and I am
NOT opposed to certification - just mandatory, blanket certification, which
is often in appropriate and subject to abuse.
Truth in advertising laws would be applicable, once a national legal
definition exists. But that relates to production methods, not verification
methods. USDA / NOP certification MAY be the best option - but in many
cases it won't (i.e. CSA operations).
> > ORGANIC CERTIFICATIONS SHOULD NOT BE OBLIGATORY
>
> How would you feel about only international or interstate commerce
> as demanding mandatory certification? I ask this since I, as a
> consumer, am in a pretty good position to check up on the produce
> of my own (admittedly small) state.
I think my comments above apply here too. And I agree that greater distance
may be a factor that influences whether certification is needed - but that
already is true, without it being compulsory. The CUSTOMER will decide what
fills his/her needs.
> > and arriving at a consensus regarding a national standard - and legal
> definition - does
> > not require that.
>
> That is true. The argument is, of course, the problem of causing
> confusion in the marketplace, which has some truth but I don't really
> buy it.
Good.
> However, at least one poster seems to want to be able to sell
> ingredients to a formulator who WILL be nationally certified, while
> simultaneously opposing mandatory certification. This seems
> contradictory. Are you one one side or the other of that?
If his buyer requires it, he'll have to respect that if he want's to sell to
that buyer - but it's between them.
> > Let OFPA / NOP / USDA organic certification stand on it's own merit.
>
> Forgive me if you have already covered my concerns, but I am taking the
> viewpoint of a retail consumer, since the whole point of labeling is to
> provide information to the customers, IMO.
A retail client may only buy or ask his retailer to handle only certified or
even USDA certified organic products - but he'll know a lot more by sampling
the product himself.
Also some labels (like some certification organisms) carry more credibility
than others. There is no valid blanket solution , and to think there is is
not only naive, it leads to abuses that I (and many others) believe will be
greater than those that exist today.
> > INSIST THAT MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR ORGANIC PRODUCTS > BE REMOVED
> FROM OFPA.
>
> It seems that a simple exemption for produce which does not cross state
> lines (or some geographic distance, preferably) would address both the
> problems of the small farmers selling their own produce and the needs of
> the customers of such produce. Would that suit your needs as well?
No Loren, it wouldn't , I am not against certification; just any and all
compulsory certification, unless it's motivated by the buyer &/or consumer.
Organic standards SHOULD be legally defined, and truth in advertising laws
applied.
And if OFPA certification standards (and certification itself) are not up to
IFOAM standards (as was and still is in danger of happening), true organic
farmers will not be locked out of the validation resources they already
have!
> Loren Muldowney
--Douglas M. Hinds Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR) (Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit) Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx
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Cook Organic Garden Club wrote:
Douglas M. Hinds wrote:Good point. It is a relationship that rightfully should be resolved between buyer and seller. A retailer or distributor must know and apply the same criteria as their own clients. There are many ways of verifying and I am NOT opposed to certification - just mandatory, blanket certification, which is often in appropriate and subject to abuse.
>
> I hate to say this but - I tried very hard to sound the alarm
> regarding this type of thing - that the danger of OFPA goes far
> beyond the GMO's, the sewage sludge and the irradiation.I have read your many warnings, but what remains is still:
How is a retail purchaser to know if something is "organic" as
I mean "organic" if those who are not certified can advertise
their produce as "organic"?Truth in advertising laws would be applicable, once a national legal definition exists. But that relates to production methods, not verification methods. USDA / NOP certification MAY be the best option - but in many cases it won't (i.e. CSA operations).
> ORGANIC CERTIFICATIONS SHOULD NOT BE OBLIGATORYI think my comments above apply here too. And I agree that greater distance may be a factor that influences whether certification is needed - but that already is true, without it being compulsory. The CUSTOMER will decide what fills his/her needs.How would you feel about only international or interstate commerce
as demanding mandatory certification? I ask this since I, as a
consumer, am in a pretty good position to check up on the produce
of my own (admittedly small) state.> and arriving at a consensus regarding a national standard - and legal definition - doesGood.
> not require that.That is true. The argument is, of course, the problem of causing
confusion in the marketplace, which has some truth but I don't really
buy it.However, at least one poster seems to want to be able to sellIf his buyer requires it, he'll have to respect that if he want's to sell to that buyer - but it's between them.
ingredients to a formulator who WILL be nationally certified, while
simultaneously opposing mandatory certification. This seems
contradictory. Are you one one side or the other of that?> Let OFPA / NOP / USDA organic certification stand on it's own merit.A retail client may only buy or ask his retailer to handle only certified or even USDA certified organic products - but he'll know a lot more by sampling the product himself.Forgive me if you have already covered my concerns, but I am taking the
viewpoint of a retail consumer, since the whole point of labeling is to
provide information to the customers, IMO.Also some labels (like some certification organisms) carry more credibility than others. There is no valid blanket solution , and to think there is is not only naive, it leads to abuses that I (and many others) believe will be greater than those that exist today.
> INSIST THAT MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR ORGANIC PRODUCTS > BE REMOVED FROM OFPA.No Loren, it wouldn't , I am not against certification; just any and all compulsory certification, unless it's motivated by the buyer &/or consumer. Organic standards SHOULD be legally defined, and truth in advertising laws applied.It seems that a simple exemption for produce which does not cross state
lines (or some geographic distance, preferably) would address both the
problems of the small farmers selling their own produce and the needs of
the customers of such produce. Would that suit your needs as well?And if OFPA certification standards (and certification itself) are not up to IFOAM standards (as was and still is in danger of happening), true organic farmers will not be locked out of the validation resources they already have!
Loren Muldowney--Douglas M. Hinds
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx
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