Douglas M. Hinds wrote:
>
> Lon J. Rombough wrote:
>
> > This is one of the most unusual ideas I've seen - that there could be a
> > problem with grafted fruit.
>
> To me the unusal thing is that grafting's become so universally accepted without
> validation. The effects of it have never been documented in depth.
>
> > I haven't seen all the material, so perhaps
> > this is an unnecessary question, but do you consider only grafted trees
> > unfit, or do you include all clonal material? What of plants that are
> > readily grown from cuttings (such as grapes), thus are not grafted,
> > though they are technically clonally propagated? What of tissue
> > culture?
>
> There are two separate but related princples at work here. One is the wholeness of
> the plant, and since a clone was not derived from a whole plant (a seed is a
> biolgical program for a whole plant), an original is superior. However, the
> diference seems to be one of degree - it's there, it's real and it's noticable, but
> it's not a radical difference.
>
> On the other hand, with grafting there's a conflict, manifested in a metabolic
> imbalance. It's not a whole organism oor even a piece of a whole organism trying to
> regenerate the rest, it two or more organisms involutarily stuck together, neitgher
> of which can fully do what it evolved to do. One doesn't have roots so it must take
> what it gets from below , which is NOT what it would take idf it were on it's own
> roots, and the other isn't allowed to produce it's own fruit. The resulting
> difference (from that of seedling fruit) is radical.
>
> Studies were going to be done but weren't, due to differences in opinion regarding
> how to procede and the fact that I left the country. The issue was broached again in
> '94 and new plans were made, but once again I couldn't be there and it didn't
> happen. (It depended that much on my participation).
>
> Once in a while I through this out (as far as I'm concerned, the GMO issue is no
> different in nature - it's just micro not macro surgery, although admittedly there
> may be - and generally is, a greater genetic difference between "donars", but the
> principle is the same); and I get a few responses but that's as far as it goes. The
> studies don't get done. Or haven't yet. And I don't have access to a suitable lab
> just yet.
>
> > There is a nursery near me that has been experimenting with
> > own-rooted trees of a number of apple varieties, propagated by tissue
> > culture. Are you against all types of clonal propagation, or just
> > those that involve grafting?
>
> The grafting is the BIG inconveniece.
>
> > I haven't read your thesis, so I can't comment on it directly, though
> > I would say that it is possible to get around rootstocks in a lot of
> > ways now besides just trying to trust to seedlings (which, as a plant
> > breeder, I know to be a lot more variable than you seem to think).
>
> Some lines are extremely variable, others aren't (e.g. polyembryonic and nucellar
> lines). In case of the former, it's a matter of seed selection, just like with row
> crops except it takes longer. (It's been said that people are in a hurry - to get
> nowhere, or to an inferior place)
>
> > Our
> > ancestors did it often with apples and pears (which we mainly graft
> > now), using such methods as layering and growing new trees from cuttings
> > of the roots of the ungrafted trees. Would you consider that wrong?
>
> Less wrong. But remember, when you impede evolution, you lose possibilities. But
> you don't get the built in metabolic conflict using slips & cuttings.
>
> > What of situations where the rootstock is vital, such as growing
> > apples in very cold climates where the rootstock contributes the needed
> > extra hardiness to allow the variety to survive and produce?
> > -Lon Rombough
> > http://www.hevanet.com/lonrom
>
> That hardyness can be bred into the line, with none of the disadvantages that
> grafting is guaranteed to produce, every time.
>
> In short, there was a trade off involved and to my mind, the wrong choice was made.
> (Once again - who's even bothered to look into this? Organic is supposedly natural,
> but the movement has totally slept through this issue, as have the sustainable
> crowd). I don't have loads of data, just a lot of personal experience that led me to
> make a personal choice and this is a personal opinion. But I've NO doubt that the
> basis is there - and I don't make statements like that lightly. I'm I little more
> sure of this issue than I am of my own name - because it goes far beyond me - and I'm
> glad to be able to make a little noise and hit a few keys, because the plants
> themselves can't do that - though they can do things neither you or I can, i.e.
> produce things that give life. You could tell me so do grafted trees, but I wouldn't
> call that life. I'd call it a wicked mess (to paraphrase a recent post). You've
> really got to live them both to get the picture.
>
> I've got the text of the original article and the reply from Beltsville in a file
> somewhere that I might be able to attach for anybody interested, but it's not that
> different from these interchanges, maybe a litlle more eloquent is all, with a few
> footnotes. And very few people are likely to take it and walk an as yet unbeaten
> path, even though the light is there, for those that have eyes (eyes that only need a
> little light to see).
>
> DH
>
> > Douglas M. Hinds wrote:
> > >
> > > Bob MacGregor wrote:
> > >
> > > > In addition to the impatience factor I mentioned in my earlier post, the
> > > > practice of grafting is a market advantage because it homogenizes the
> > > > product (particularly for apples).
> > >
> > > This is true. However, it's much more true with some fruits and varieties than
> > > with others. Quite a few are genetically stable and are therefore ready to
> > > grow from seed, much as an open pollinated standard variety is, in row crops.
> > > Many strains of citrus, mangoes, some varieties of avocados, sapotes and
> > > cherimoyas (my experience is mainly with subtropicals) have been consistently
> > > grown from seed successfully. The exceptions will take more work, but that
> > > involves nothing more than seed selection and a little patience. Remember that
> > > all varieties originate from seed (except the unpredictable sport) and that
> > > being variable means that the offspring can be better, worse or just different
> > > (not all people share the same preferences, and not all varieties will be
> > > adaptable to the same conditions, anyway).
> > >
> > > > My acreage -- indeed the whole of
> > > > Prince Edward Island -- is covered by scattered apple tree seedlings. In
> > > > the late summer/early fall, I enjoy going on walks and sampling the
> > > > apples. Every one is different (which would make it hard to establish a
> > > > reliable market presence) and many (I'd say most) are not very palatable.
> > > > Trying to establish a whole orchard of more-or-less similar apple trees
> > > > from seed would be a big, very time-consuming job, I'd think.
> > >
> > > You are looking at a marketing problem. I am looking at a defect that as far
> > > as I'm concerned, makes all grafted fruit unfit to eat. I literally hate
> > > eating it, and the only time I do so is by mistake. The difference is much more
> > > than qualitative. It's a totally different experience and I want no part of
> > > it. Of course the difference was noted in the late 60īs, so I've had ample
> > > opportunity to build on it.
> > >
> > > Why don't you take seed from the best seedlings and maintain a moist seed bed?
> > > It would be interesting to note what percentage of those proved to be of
> > > exceptional quality, and what percentage reverted to something less desirable
> > > (that may never the less be genetically valuable).
> > >
> > > > I seem to recall from my years in Riverside that citrus and stone fruits
> > > > grew pretty well there, but we had to head to the hills to find successful
> > > > apple orchards (Riverside didn't have adequate cold dormancy period for
> > > > reliable apple production -- or, maybe it was the smog!!). Was the UCR
> > > > research on apples or pears or on stone-fruit?
> > >
> > > I was working with Bob Berg and it was avocados, most (but not all ) of which
> > > were in Tustin. But I've have access to other groves with many seedlings (The
> > > U. of Arizona, The USDA groves in Palm Desert, Brock Ranches between Yuma and
> > > El Centro, and many private groves in CA and Mexico). I do remember some
> > > excellent seedling pears.
> > >
> > > > We did a minor amount
> > > > of grafting of plums, apricots and peaches at home in Riverside, but I
> > > > never noticed any difference in flavour between the fruit from the parent
> > > > (seed-grown) tree and that from the grafted stock.
> > >
> > > Many or most plums and apricots will also come true to seed. To perceive the
> > > difference you should eat the seedlings before ingesting anything else that
> > > day. And once you eat single a grafted fruit you'll lose your edge and find it
> > > hard to regain it during the course of that day and sometimes even for the next
> > > few days. I'd rather eat non organic seedlings (within reason - if not drowned
> > > in insecticide), than grafted organic fruit. (Obviously organic seedlings
> > > would be best). And good seedling strains that come true to seed will have to
> > > be developed in many cases. They're individuals, of course. Grafting is an
> > > abominable form of cloning (which is bad enough in itself), because there's
> > > always a degree of conflict between rootstock and scion.
> > >
> > > > On my land, it has been my observation that the wild apple seedlings are
> > > > very vigourous and hardy. In addition, because they are mostly
> > > > scattered around the edges of old fields and pastures, they tend to have
> > > > very little insect damage compared to fruit or trees in an unattended (ie,
> > > > untreated) orchard situation. A futher observation (though not a
> > > > rigourously-quantified one) of mine is that the trees with the best-tasting
> > > > fruit seem to be the ones that are more likely to be girdled by mice in the
> > > > winter (I have lost some of my favourites this way).
> > >
> > > Why do they do that? Do they prefer them? You should be able to keep the mice
> > > off your trees (use tanglefoot or grease / vaseline over a plastic band, or a
> > > shallow water filled concrete basin - it could be a bicycle tire cut in half
> > > and dug in to ground level, etc.).
> > >
> > > > My long-term plan
> > > > is to graft scions from the good-tasting wild apples onto the vigourous,
> > > > and more mouse-resistant rootstock of the sour wild apples (and prune
> > > > appropriately over subsequent years).
> > >
> > > You won't get the same results. It will be a caricature of the wild favorite.
> > >
> > > > I don't expect the resulting fruit
> > > > to be harmful to me or to the wildlife that share the fruit with me.
> > >
> > > Harmful? How harmful is it to not live? To not be yourself? It's deprivation
> > > and distortion. It's like disease.
> > >
> > > > As I
> > > > continue to get to know my apples better, I'll know which ones I like best
> > > > for fresh eating, for pies, for applesauce. I don't care much whether my
> > > > wild apples are "brand name" MacIntosh, Red Delicious, Jonathan or
> > > > whatever -- but when I buy apples in the grocery store, I like to have a
> > > > little more predictability in what I'm buying (my local stores frown on
> > > > taste-testing as you go). I just don't see large-volume fruit supply
> > > > working very well (at least for apples) without grafting.
> > >
> > > Not for now it won't. People depend on labels, but that's in large part due to
> > > having lost their own power of discrimination.
> > >
> > > > I agree that your hypothesis about grafting _could_ be correct, but I
> > > > remain to be convinced of significant -- if any -- adverse effects of
> > > > grafting.
> > >
> > > Neither you nor anybody else is going to be convinced as long as there's no
> > > availability. There's no basis for comparison.
> > >
> > > > Unfortunately, since it doesn't seem to be a research priority
> > > > for anyone, we aren't likely to find out the truth of the matter anytime
> > > > soon.
> > >
> > > That's correct. No one who doesn't bother to look into it, is going to know
> > > whether he's missing anything or not.
> > >
> > > > BOB
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Douglas M. Hinds
> > > Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
> > > (Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
> > > Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
> > > e-mail: cedecor@ipnet.com.mx, dmhinds@acnet.net, dhinds@ucol.mx
> > >
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>
> --
>
> Douglas M. Hinds
> Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
> (Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
> Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
> U.S. Voice Mailbox: 1 630 300 0550 (e-mail linked)
> U.S. Fax Mailbox: 1 630 300 0555 (e-mail linked)
> Tel. & Fax: 011 523 412 6308 (direct)
> e-mail: cedecor@ipnet.com.mx, dmhinds@acnet.net, dhinds@ucol.mx
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